What part of your personality, upon reflection, would you say needs the most improvement?
For me, it’s definitely controlling my temper, which extends into areas like patience, measuring my responses, suffering fools, and not assuming the worst in people. The A-number-one reason I could never, ever be in politics is because my fuse is woefully short once a certain threshold of something* is passed. It’s a constant struggle, and I’m pretty sure it always will be, but I am at least trying to be more aware of it and catch myself before the fuse goes off.
On the other hand, I do believe there are a select few circumstances that call for a less-than-measured response. Someone threatening my girlfriend is one of those. You go there, and all bets are off. I’ve read over that comment a few times and have been trying to decide whether I overreacted, and haven’t been able to convince myself that I did. Maybe Victor is just that oblivious or poor a writer that he really didn’t think “be prepared for a bar of ivory soap and a dictionary for your mouth this weekend” would (or even could) be construed as a threat. But I’m not convinced. You tell me.
* - something being a perception, whether it’s correct or not, that I am being slighted, that a person I am having a discussion with is being willfully ignorant, rude, condescending, or obstinate, or other things that potentially call for a more measured response than I typically offer
As always I may be the devil’s advocate here. I read it as Internet smack in response to “Hey Victor, why don’t you settle the fuck down kiddo?” He may have taken offense and overreacted himself. It’s also a standard intellectual upper hand smack-talk technique. Oooo, you had to use curse words. I’m going to wash your mouth out and bring a dictionary. The overly specific nature of his use of “ivory” soap says to me that he was trying to be a smart-ass.
This isn’t just one of my stances of general opposition in order to amuse myself. I am doing that by over analyzing the entire occurrence. I really did have to read that (I clicked the link before reading on) several times to find what was construed as a threat. He should in general be more thoughtful about how he talks to people he is potentially about to meet in person. The Internet seems to serve as a safe little refuge for many to say things to others that they would not say to their face. I am a much bigger dick-head in type myself. That’s because I have more time to gather my thoughts, not becasue I am less of a dick-head in person.
Why do so many people completely lose their shit when they see the word “fuck?” (Assuming that’s what set off our friend Vic.) Yes, I suggested that he calm the fuck down - because he was pitching a goddamn hissy fit about what was probably a PEBKAC error. You did read his first two comments, yes?
Hmm… From my vantage point, I see someone bitching about a web site, and whether the gripe is legitimate or not, bitching about web sites is a pretty benign, common thing to do. Then, Amber jumps in with this “settle the fuck down” retort that makes it clear she’s taking it personally. And it’s not that she doesn’t have the right to do so, but the point is that it went from a (probably overblown) gripe to a heated discussion.
Believe me, I’ll act as irrationally as I feel like acting if I perceive a legitimate threat to my girl as well. And yes, since wives/girlfriends aren’t our property or an extension of ourselves, this kind of reaction does sometimes make us (men) look like asses. A reasoned response, especially in the face of Victor’s inexplicable words (wtf is a “dictionary for your mouth”?), would have been more appropriate in the context of it being a heated discussion rather than a random attack on her.
I mean, like anyone else on the interwebs, Amber is obviously going to be in lots of arguments with people, so I think it’s vital to make sure there’s an actual threat before you threaten something ridiculous like knocking their teeth out. I realize that there’s an added level of caution on your part because you’re actually going to see this guy in real life this weekend, but the bottom line is that I don’t think he threatened her, but you certainly threatened him.
The part of the sentence I keep going back to is “be prepared.”
That’s not someone should wash your mouth out with a bar of soap.
That’s I’m coming this weekend to wash your mouth out with a (metaphorical) bar of soap.
Given the context of a heated discussion, that sounded like a threat to me.
He over-reacted with his complaints about the web site. A little perspective, please. He then over-reacted with his threat (which intentional or not, it WAS a threat - and in many ways, it’s WORSE if it was unintentional). Social skills do not appear to be in abundance here. Victor also has a history of making weird, non-sensical statements ’round the blogosphere; folks who aren’t familiar with him don’t have that information and so can’t factor it into their assessment of the situation.
As usual, the caveat of “I could be wrong” applies. This is, however, how it looks from my vantage point, and I’m not alone in that view.
(Off-topic sidenote: Rusty, it looks like you might want to spring forward your blog’s UTC offset)
Um, because it’s a word that has intense meaning and emotions attached to it for a lot of people. “Settle the fuck down” is at the least a very angry and bitter response, and “kiddo” is just patronizing. I don’t lose my shit over the word in general–that would be pretty fucking hypocritical–but if someone truly uses it in anger at me, it’s a lot more of an attack than if they had chose less violent words. Maybe he deserved it, and maybe he didn’t, but it turned into an argument at that point and not any earlier.
Garrett wrote:
Certainly there will be differences of opinion. What ultimately matters, though, is whether I perceived it as a threat. And I did, and do.
Yes, I read the entire thread. I’m not saying that this guy wasn’t being a tool. I didn’t say you said anything wrong. I said he could have very well taken that personally. He may have overreacted. I am fairly sure there was no real intended threat though.
A. I don’t think he really intends on bringing a bar of ivory soap and a dictionary with him.
B. If he did, I don’t think he would actually try to force that soap into your mouth. I don’t know what he wants to do with his dicktionary. He could very well want to force it upon people.
If it definitely was a threat, what was he threatening? You were genuinely worried that this guy was going to show up at PodCamp and stick a bar of soap in your mouth? If he had said more plainly “be prepared for me to wash your mouth out with soap and teach you some better words to use”, that’s an actual, direct threat? Do people really wash each other’s mouth out with soap? I mean besides parents/their children, which seems to be the reference he was making.
Yes, it was a poorly chosen response, especially given the meatspace context of “this weekend”. I still believe that Rusty’s was pretty poorly chosen as well, and more of a threat than Victor’s would have been even if Victor had worded it clearly.
Hmmmm how to phrase what I want to convey.
If I write, “This appearance of trying to justify Victor’s behavior is alarming me,” other commenters will say that no, in fact, they aren’t trying to justify it, just explain it. And I understand that. I really don’t think Garrett’s trying to defend the dude, for example. It is however starting to get a little weird in my opinion.
The guy behaved like an asshole. That’s my assessment. YMMV.
(And don’t even get me started on a feminist critique, because then hoo boy will the shit start to fly, and I don’t have the patience for it today. Maybe another time.)
It’s all symantics. I see it everywhere in this whacky p.c. world.
If I were to say “Prepare to die.” Sure I could be telling you that I intend to kill you. I also could be trying to sell you a living will and maybe some tax sheltered IRA’s for your loved ones.
I propose that we attempt one podcast, perhaps while inebriated, where we use modifiers of direct purpose for every single noun.
“Hey Rusty, hand me that bottle opener for my beer (for my mouth). Just put it in my hand for holding stuff that goes in my mouth.”
To me, it read like standard issue pseudo-anonymous braggadocio. As much as we’d like to think that we’ve evolved in this medium, some of us still cling to the all-avatar/never-real atmosphere that defined old school AOL chatrooms or even Usenet groups. Why bother dropping a governor (for your mouth) on what you say when nobody is ever going to call you on it in person?
Was it a threat? I doubt it. But see, that’s the problem with lone text. Even with some instances of bold or italics, we’ve no means of inflection. This turns sarcasm into a far greater challenge. If I’m hanging out with someone and playfully threaten to “wash [your] filthy mouth out with soap (for your mouth),” all that person has to do is look at my face to know that I’m joking.
On the Internet, not so much.
(I’m rambling … I think I need more Coca-Cola or something.)
(For my mouth.)
On the feminist side, the gynocentric side if you prefer, really this was and is Amber’s fight. Rusty your chest thumping and male bravado has undermined her. She was fully capable of handling the situation on her own.
To clarify what I said (see the dilemma?) …
Was it a threat? I doubt it.
Meaning not that I’d call it dismissable, just that how the hell would anyone know? Words are all we have here. So the better part of valor (or whatever) would be to take it for what it seems to mean in light of the poster’s history, violent or passive.
Nice work telling me what I’m capable of, Lush.
Thomas - what does “dropping a governor” mean? Never heard it but I like the sound of it.
I could make a list of things you are capable of if you wish. That way you’ll never have to ask “Can I do that?” You can just check the list.
Side note: It’s more symantics really. I wasn’t telling you. I was telling Rusty.
Amber -
I suppose you’d call it an automotive term, though you can apply it to any vehicle that has an accelerator (car, speed boat, snowmobile).
Used to be, the governor would be a bolt that could be affixed and adjusted ‘neath a gas pedal, thus limiting how far the pedal could be depressed and therefore how fast the car would go. A bit iffy in execution, but for concerned parents with new teenage drivers, it was a means of control when little Billy took to the highway.
Nowadays, governors are electronic in nature, usually placed on school buses (or the trucks of certain delivery companies) to ensure the same thing as the old bolt in the floor, a definable speed limit.
And that is your obscure terminology lesson for the day.
Meh, Rusty asked for our opinion and we gave it. The topic was “Did I overreact?”
I say “yes, you did”, but that doesn’t mean I’m on the other guy’s side. That’d be a false dichotomy. My best interpretation of Victor’s comment is a Tommy Callahan-like “you’re the one who’s gonna get…soap and a dictionary…with the… weekend on it.”
Anyway, if my interpretation and answer to Rusty’s question are making you uneasy, for whatever reason, I apologize.
Garrett - I know you’re not on the other guy’s side. And I do appreciate the apology as well; it’s amazing how far something like that can go, you know? I was just trying to say, there was an undertone that I can’t quite put my finger on (or, rather, can’t quite put into words) that was starting to creep me out. You’re right though, it absolutely does sound like Tommy Boy now that you mention it.
Lush - I seriously doubt Rusty needed to be told that.
Thomas - Wow! Awesome! I love obscure terminology. Maybe one day that’ll be the answer to a trivia question.
Why do people overreact to the word fuck? Fuck if I know. Last week because I once called the president Fuckface I was apparently guilty of hate speech. Allegedly liquor-fueled hate speech at that, even though everyone knows I would totally call W a fuckface when stone cold sober.
Some people (particularly southern men, in my estimation) just can’t deal with a dirty mouth on a woman, which I say is entirely their problem. I consider it part of my charm that I unabashedly swear like a sailor.
Amber, I think you were right to be bothered by his initial tone, and Rusty I think you were right to be bothered by his weird response about doing some vague thing to her that involved soap. It sounded icky and creepy and a little threatening, and I don’t blame you for being bothered by someone saying it to your girlfriend. We can argue about the proportionality all day, but at the end of the day that’s an individual thing and one that is no doubt affected by your relationship to the person who you feel may have been threatened.
Right. Arguing the “proportionality” here doesn’t do away with the fact that it was weird, creepy, inappropriate, and I felt threatened. There it is, make of it what you will; but that is how I feel. And, I am soooo tempted to go off on the feminist implications of it but I just… won’t. Not now, anyway. Too much other shit on my mind to get into more of THAT.
Also? I am not a pacifist. Sometimes people deserve to be spoken to, um, less than gently. Sometimes people deserve to have their asses kicked.
And, Sara, re: that shit that went down at your blog? hooooo boy… well, I am going to attempt to get to the bottom of that, actually… but I will talk to you about it off-blog.
I think you should dig down deep and go on the feminist implications.
I can get the ball rolling.
My previous response where I offered you a list and said that I was speaking to Rusty was inadequate.
The pristine response should have been “Know your place woman! Men are speaking here!”
Just trying to bring out that feminist volatility.
How about the argument that feminism = sexism. That, once again we go back to semantics, that the same general attitude from a man would be called male chauvinism. That has a very different connotation to it doesn’t it? I am sure one could find a feminist issue in anything if one was in the frame of mind to constantly look for one.
Discuss
You are right though. Women’s suffrage activists have fought long and hard against their fellow woman having to bear being told to prepare to have their mouths washed out with soap. That doesn’t even begin to deal with the whole being given a dictionary issue. I just don’t think we have to time or energy to delve in to that one.
Nope, nope, and nope again. No time for your little joke. Feel free to continue being amused by yourself, though. Someone’s gotta do it, I guess, and better you than me.
What joke?
Fucking clean up those sunflower seeds, Rusty.
Damn Right David! He needs to clean those up like a good little bitch.
Bitch’s ass. He ripped open the damn bag and sent the damn things flying. Leaving some arbitrary percentage there would be the bitch thing to do.
That arbitray percentage was gravity’s fault.
I’m going to be serious for a moment. My honest opinion on the matter is that Rusty here is just reiterating the standing rule which exists in a very real and very good way amongst people of character: that those who bring true malicious intent against one’s “inner circle”, be they friends, loved ones, etc, despite the race, gender, creed, familial affiliation, etc of same, will reap the whirlwind. I myself am an advocate of this initiative, and I expect that a similar response would be resultant from him toward percieved threats made against any number of people, the only homogenous characteristic within that group being the aforementioned “inner circle” status.
The rest of you somehow escaped from Andy Rooney’s cloning vats. “Let’s analyze things in a cantankerous fashion! You know what I hate?”
I thought it was the bag manufacturer’s. Maybe some combination of the two. Or maybe Samuel Adams was supposed to rise from the dead and clean up after 30% of his drunk ass.
Think I should jump in here a sec… Amber can MORE than handle her own. That’s just a given. Especially with me there to kick their ass good, again, once she does all the heavy lifting. And provided I was still half sober, which would likely be highly unlikely in bar-room brawl kinda scenarios we seem to be conjuring up here.
But I think it’s just darn mighty fine chivalry at work there by Mr. RGM, and I for one am all for good, fine, strong men looking out for others, weak or strong, who might be in a position of needing an extra hand. Heck, even Jesus needed a posse of disciples. Not that they could save him in the end, but all that disciplin’ sure gave ‘em something to write about at least.
We should all be so lucky to have a fiercely loyal significant other in our lives. Gosh darn touching if you ask me.
Jesus didn’t need a goddamn thing, thank you very much. He kicked the scourge’s ass with his rippling back muscles (40 times!), and the only reason he didn’t just instantly heal those wounds is so that he could melt the cross with his acidic blood.
You wanna talk about Jesus? Jesus scared water so badly that it fermented itself in self-defense. Jesus healed a woman who had been bleeding for 12 years by passing threads from his cloak through the wound and lighting them. Jesus invented dynamite 1800+ years before Nobel because fishing with a net bored him.
Jesus? Jesus drove seven demons out of Mary Magdelene to make room for himself. Jesus healed deafness using his magic phrase, “Bitch, you betta listen the FUCK UP.”
Jesus broke the Sphinx’s nose in a bar fight and used the Colossus of Rhode’s balls as a speed-bag. Jesus invented novelty boxers when he got Simon Peter to translate the phrase “The Hanging Gardens” into Aramaic. Jesus modelled for obelisks.
People always talk about Jesus like they know. Pfff.
Dude, Jesus lives in my damn trailer park. So just calm the fuck down.
Now you’ve done it. Jesus is coming over there with some soap.
Be prepared.
First of all, I totally thought dave was the one that threatened her, good to know it wasn’t him.
Second of all, these are just comments on a weblog, so ultimately, they don’t really have to go any further. Rusty, if you think that you over-reacted, then it is more likely that you did, but if you don’t, then you don’t need to question your actions.
One thing that is important to remember, is that it doesn’t matter what people think of your actions or what you say. I personally don’t think that you over-reacted, and I understand why you are protective over Amber; if I perceived a threat to James I would be the same way.
And Amber, I wonder the same thing… it’s just a fucking word. It isn’t like other polarizing words, so I don’t get the polarizing effect it has on puritanical people.
I don’t think she likes it when people say that…
You know what else is just a fucking word?
Sasquatch.
Think about it.
Duane,
Dave’s an idiot, sure, but he’s not dumb enough to threaten me.
And re: “fuck”… I don’t know. People seem to latch onto it and I’m not sure many of them could even explain why. I would be interested to hear people flesh out their reasoning, though.
Garrett,
It all depends on the tone, intent, and who the speaker is, not the words themselves.
You didn’t overreact Rusty. Neither did Amber in her initial response. Anyway, life knows few pressures as intense as hosting an event for 200 people that you’ve been planning for six months. Everyone gets a pass here, except the sort of creepy guy who doesn’t realize he’ll soon be f2f with an entire room of people who call themselves your friends. Dude, not the best way to endear yourself to the group.
Sorry to be so late to the party on this. It strikes me that any discussion of whether Rusty was out of line *can’t* take place outside a feminist analysis of what Victor said. For starter’s, consider that it’s almost impossible to imagine him making the same comments to Amber if she were a male. I imagine he may have made a rude response of a different kind, but threatening to wash her mouth out with a bar of soap is the kind of thing you only say to someone you perceive as a person of inferior power (e.g., an adult to a kid, or in this case, a man to a woman). As for why people freak out over the word “fuck”, I think it has much more to do with people freaking out about *girls* using the word fuck. The threatening part of the comment to me wasn’t so much the literal idea that he would actually come to Podcamp* armed with a loaded dictionary, but the sense that he was ready to put an uppity woman in her place the next time he saw her. So, go Rusty, go.
*I am assuming he didn’t come to Podcamp, or he came and didn’t make trouble.
Yes. What Paula said. EXACTLY.
(And no he didn’t come to PodCamp. I guess he’s not dumb enough to do that.)
i can’t understand!!