I‘ve come to a point where I try not to take national politics too seriously these days. It’s an uncontrollable clusterfuck that’s all but totally pointless to get emotionally involved with. But, occasionally, I hear something that really gets under my skin. I give you Vice President Dick Cheney and his co-conspirator in bullshit dissemination CNN (emphasis mine):
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Vice President Dick Cheney said Monday he was offended by Amnesty International’s condemnation of the United States for what it called “serious human rights violations” at Guantanamo Bay.
“For Amnesty International to suggest that somehow the United States is a violator of human rights, I frankly just don’t take them seriously,” he said in an interview that was to air Monday night on CNN’s “Larry King Live.”
You know what offends me, Dick?
That acts like this…
And this…
And this…
And this…
Are carried out in MY FUCKING NAME every day, and that you have personally shown NO FUCKING INTEREST in remedying the systemic problems you and Donald Rumsfeld helped create that encouraged this sort of behavior. Your LACK OF FUCKING INTEREST in righting this wrong ENDANGERS SOLDIERS who are just there to DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS and not WAGE A GODDAMN CRUSADE. Your APATHY has shamed me, the United States, and all the honest soldiers out there you’re responsible for endangering by allowing this to happen. That’s what offends me you rotten son of a bitch. Burn in fucking hell.
And to CNN: you’re complicit. Do your job you fucking cowards.
[...] people who hide behind them to pursue their own dark agendas. In that vein, Rusty wrote the best Memorial Day post I read all weekend. Check it ou [...]
So if someone in your town commits murder, does that, by extension, make you a murderer, too? If someone in your family kills the neighbor’s dog, does that make your whole family dogkillers? No. Just as the actions of some out-of-control morons in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo does not turn the US (and all its inhabitants) into a “violator of human rights”.
I think Cheney is a buttwad and I loathe him in the most justifiable Christian way, but I do agree with these comments. Amnesty International should better qualify its remarks and all the haters should maintain perspective (in terms of violations versus prisoners handled). It’s not Auschwitz. Not even remotely close in any sane person’s mind.
And before you say to me, “This torture is US policy as dictated by Rumsfeld and Cheney” — that has not been proven. If it is proven, they should also be prosecuted. Those that have been found responsible have been or are being prosecuted (although we’re not going to hang them in public square or cut their heads off like our fellow “violators of human right” would). Again, perspective.
In the meantime, though, Amnesty International was irresponsible in its remarks.
Sincerely,
Reasonable Georgia Conservative
I think that we need to learn to recognize truth-telling. AI and the Red Cross and other NGOs have been pointing at the elephant in the bathtub for a long time. I can’t believe, even though it would make me feel better, that it’s “just a few bad apples.” And, whether it is or not is fairly pointless, because those photos are the perception of this in the world. And it’s hurting us.
Mike,
I respect your opinion and am glad you’re reading and commenting. I suspect we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point.
Nikki, I agree that this is the perception in parts of the world and that’s unfortunate. There is little we can do to combat the Arab press who thinks the Jews and now the Americans cause all evil in world (including everything from the plight and misery of all destitute Arab citizens to the leaky faucets in their homes and the crooked parts in their hair).
Nor is it easy to combat the European press who hates us because we are the true lone superpower in the world (and we assume the responsibilities that go with that) and because they resent the encroachment of American movies/culture into their cultures (If they hate American culture so much, they should quit obsessing over American movies and quit showing American TV shows).
However, Amnesty International is supposed to be a respectable and unbiased organization. They called Guantanamo a gulag. The Soviet Gulag killed an estimated 3,000,000 people citizens, including priests, peasants, dissidents, and liberals. Have there been any deaths in Guatanamo? I don’t know, but it’s possible that one or two have died of battlefield injuries or old age. Again, the comparison is ludicrous and irresponsible to make.
The UN has proven itself to be an inept and broken institution. It looks like Amnesty International might have the same problem. Maybe they need to be “Bolton”-ed down as well?
Thanks, Rusty. I do like your blog. Being a fellow Georgian, I guess we are bruh-thuhs in a sense.
I used to read Kos and some of the more over-the-top liberal blogs, but they started to make my eyes bleed and my skin crawl. Your blog is a happy (if profane) medium, I think.
I’ll keep checking in.
I would like to respectfully disagree with your position, Mike, and have a civilized discussion of our respective viewpoints, but… maybe it’s the late hour and too much IHOP talking, but it sounds kind of like the same old Republican rhetoric.
[I apologize in advance for this comment, which may seem like flamebait. I can't be held responsible for my words or actions at this hour. I should really get my sorry ass to bed.]
Glad to discuss rationally. I don’t consider myself Republican because I dislike both parties. I guess I’m a conservative independent. However, I do vote Republican more often that not (while lamenting the existence of the ever-limiting two-party system).
And this is my rhetoric. My thought-out opinions. They do, in this case, though, also concur with the views of General Myers, our not-very-trustworthy VP, and even the usually liberal Washington Post (op-ed on Monday).
If you want, re-read my arguments and let me know if you think anything I said is untrue or irrational. My basic contention is that Amnesty International was overly harsh and out of line.
To further explain, I read today that the US has handled/processed around 68,000 prisoners beginning with Afghanistan. I don’t know the alleged number of abuse cases, but even 100 abused prisoners would be less than 1/6th of one percent of the total. And remember that these prisoners have been detained for a reason. They are usually there because they shot at our troops or tried to blow our troops up. They would slit their throats in a second. They aren’t just delicate flowers being violated by the mean American troops.
But that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong (nod to Dennis Miller).
:o)
Good post, Rusty, remember folks, don’t get sidetracked by apologetic remarks from the Righties.
It is what it is. Go read the Toguba report to see the military’s own report on what was going on in that place…the people being tortured were round-ups, for the most part.
It was being done in our name, and that’s why we have to keep speaking out for decency.
I remember the speech Bush gave (the first of five parts- although he never delivered the other four) in which he said the prison would be torn down- remember? He never delivered.
more…Amnesty International isn’t the organization that pointed out that 15 year old kids had dogs put on them- so that the guards could see which kid would shit on himself first, they aren’t the organization that revealed these guys were made to suck each other’s dicks and masterbate, they weren’t the organization that revealed pictures of smirking uniformed soldiers posing with naked prisoners, who were given bug infested food, and had sticks inserted into their asses. The organization was the US Military, because there are still enough decent soldiers left to put a stop to this shit…..
Going around talking about European Culture and all that other crap doesn’t address the moral depravity we have allowed ourselves to sink into since 9-11.
Sorry, if Amnesty International is a liberal organization then I am a liberal too. I damn well sure didn’t vote for George Bush either, and I am glad I didn’t.
Let the Conservatives defend this shit….hell, let them go over and enlist. Any “Conservative” including one who cops out and won’t claim the label Republican below the age of 30 who doesn’t enlist owes an apology to the kids and Guardsmen over there right now.
On second thought, maybe I will engage in this.
No, but if I knew my neighbor was going to murder someone and failed to call the police and prevent the act, that makes me an accessory.
Politicians build plausible deniability into nearly everything they do, so it would be a stretch for me to write “George W. Bush knew about torture and did nothing to stop it, which makes him an accessory to torture.” However, I can say his efforts to stop it after finding out about it have not been satisfactory by any measurement. The president is the highest elected official in this country. He is the figurehead; the face the world most closely associates with this country. He is the supreme representative and diplomat. When he shows indifference to torture, he is saying, “the United States is indifferent to torture,” regardless of what he says in his speeches. Actions being louder than words and all that.
I’ll grant you the gulag comparison was hyperbole, but that doesn’t make Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld’s indifference to what’s going on there any less reprehensible. AI may not have chosen its words as carefully as it should have, but the spirit of the comments wasn’t far off the mark.
Mike, what your comments represent is essentially relativistic. By making comparisons to other historic events and claiming that they hate us more (and therefore, it’s okay for us to act this way) excuses neither the abuse at Abu Ghraib nor the wealth of buck passing in its wake.
To consider the responsibility we hold as the nation’s sole “superpower” with any sense of perspective, consider how well that strategy worked for the Roman Empire. The Project for a New American Century, with which Cheney is affiliated, used the term Pax Americana to describe a lasting peace enforced by America. The chief strategy listed in their report for the 21st century is to preserve Pax Americana.
When you consider the lasting effects of such a strategy, the only reasonable answer I can give as to “why they hate us” is that we brought on that hatred ourselves through the choices (read as policies) we’ve made. When we have the choice of either sharing (and enhancing) our wealth or enforcing it, we tend to enforce our wealth. I just don’t see how that makes our country more secure.
(sorry — a little long)
All good comments (IMO). I can see I’m a the superminority here. I know where y’all’re (like that one?) coming from. I don’t like torture. I am embarrassed by Abu Ghraib. I think barbarous acts at Guantanamo are despicable. Still, Rusty’s original post was specifically about Cheney’s comments re: Amnesty International’s blanket derision of the US (although I suspect the post had as much to do with Cheney the person as it did Cheney’s comments).
Now to address few points.
Steve:
* Please continue to speak out for decency. We all should. I would just respectfully suggest that we direct any anger at those who have been PROVEN to be responsible — a small number of irresponsible folks. Comments such as those by Amnesty Int’l do not exist in a vacuum and they have consequences. As such, they should be measured and accurate, not reckless hyperbole.
* If I recall correctly, the Iraqis talked Bush out of destroying the Abu Ghraib facility (to save money, avoid inconvenience, etc.). Bush may have jumped the gun by committing to tear it down without consulting the Iraqis, but this failed commitment was the result of a diplomatic/strategic decision (still, notwithstanding this decision, I would concede that Bush diplomacy is an oxymoronic term).
* No, Amnesty Int’l wasn’t the one who pointed out the violations. They were the ones who equated them with the senseless death of 3,000,000 innocents. That’s a bridge way the heck too far.
* No, mentioning European culture doesn’t address our “moral depravity”, but it addressed Nikki’s comment about world perception (as it was meant to).
* I don’t see any conservatives defending the specific acts you mentioned. I’m definitely not. And, personally, I’m not under 30 and not “copping out” by eschewing the Republican label. I’m not a veteran, but I come from a military family. I do agree with you, however, that people should be willing to “walk the walk”.
Rusty:
* I don’t see indifference from Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. They have launched and/or endorsed investigations and witnessed to panels and are waiting for the legal process to take its course. What would you have them do? I guess they could offer up our soldiers to a biased and hostile international court that would give them the Milsoevic treatment, but I prefer the course we’ve taken. Now, I would feel a little better if Bushco was vociferously disavowing torture a little more often and visibly. I could see Clinton, if he were head cheese, being a better salesman of our national horror and disdain at torture. However, Bushco’s actions on this matter have been appropriate thus far (IMO).
And Joe:
* Absolutely, my argument is relativistic. And legitimately so.
* Nowhere did I claim that it’s okay for us to “act this way” because they hate us more than we hate them. Huh?
* I didn’t/don’t excuse the actions at Abu Ghraib.
* I’m not buck-passing. Those found responsible should be held accountable. That’s what I said.
* A little off the Amnesty gulag comment, but Re: Pax Americana, that is what the world has been under since the end of WWII (as per your link). We are the dominant nation militarily and economically. And, as such, we are the default world police. I don’t like it, but it’s a reality. It’s a bit of a Catch 22, but when we don’t intervene enough (e.g., Israel/Palestine), we get blamed. When we do intervene (e.g., Afghanistan, Iraq), we’re derided. Military action should always be a very last step (see: Iraq - economic and diplomatic means failed and failed and failed), but has to at least be on the table and should be used responsibly.
Re: Pax: I want Pax. You want Pax. We all want Pax. As John Lennon said, “Give pax a chance”. However, Binladenco formally and vocally declared war on us in the 90’s. We’ve been at war with them for a while — we just didn’t realize it until 9/11/01. And militant Muslims are spread across the Middle East and are moving into Western Europe and causing problems. Look at the murder of Van Gogh in Holland. My friends in Amsterdam tell me that the Muslims there are taking over many of their neighborhoods, driving up crime rates, and have no plans to assimilate. Do we just do nothing? I admit that I just don’t know. There are no easy solutions. Knowing what they are saying and doing and knowing what they are capable of, what should we do? I guess that is the million-dollar question.
Well, as Rusty said, we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree. Still, I thank you for allowing me to express myself and responding with sanity and not reflexive, knee-jerk contempt.
Mike,
I got your back bro!!!
Yes Abu Ghraib was wrong, but Rusty where were your cries of contempt when your countrymen were getting their heads lobbed of for being American. What if that was Aaron, or Josh, or even Ken? You are more pissed that a shitty organization like Amnesty International thinks we did wrong, than when “The Real Enemy” is killing our troops and citizen in ways that prove them to be nothing less than cowards. I do agree that CNN should do the job they did all through the 90’s…giving the Clinton family an eight year handjob.
I agree with the Vice President. I am offended. A group of pussies like AI say foul on you for not playing war the way we say is like me going to Chipper Jones and saying, “No you hit a curveball like this.”
Joe your remarks about us being the world’s only superpower, and our choices/policies being the reason we have brought this on ourselves is almost sociopathic. That is like all the black people saying they are going to beat the shit out of Oprah and Michael Jordan because they have too much money, and the choice that they made were set to establish themselves as a power in each of their respective disciplines.
Liberal Steve, your turn. I am 29 I enlisted at 18, but because of “Clinton’s Volunteer Military” ,as it was known in most circles, I was not allowed in the military becasue of an ingrown toenail (I played an entire basbetball season at a very high level with the same aliment). I was very willing to go, in fact I was honored to be able to serve until this opportunity was taken from me. So lets talk of moral depravity. This president hasn’t been getting his cock sucked by anyone other than his wife unlike the last one that was getting bobo honked by a whore half his age. What to you is moral depravity? Is it that more people have turned toward a judeo-christian world, and personal view? Just because you do not agree with it does not make it a morally deplorable action. It appears that you would rather everyone think and do what you like, and what you think is right…is that facist? In the immortal words of Stalin when his train broke down, “Shoot the engineer!”
Nikki: Red Cross and AI couldn’t have their own agendas here so that they prove themselves to be useful. No that couldn’t be it. That would question their virtue. Remember what advice Hannibal Lecter gave to Clarice Starling when examining evidence, “What is it in itself?” Meaning what is the purpose of its being, and how would it sustain itself. I think that while we question this administration we must also question those who rise against them. Hey! I remember Amnesty International after 9/11 don’t you? Umm anybody? Bueller. BUELLER! That’s right kids AI is equal with John Kerry legislation in this matter.
Amber: IHOP ummmmm pancakes!
I am not trying to start a war, but understand that there is more at play here than regular politics. Especially is CNN and Larry King (read DNC shill) are giving VP Cheney any credit or forum for that matter.
This is the same old crap that Republicans always pull. They pulled it over at my blog a week or so ago. I won’t claim to speak for Rusty, but as for myself, I think the beheadings were horrendous. Just like I think the current violence is horrendous - violence being done by Americans, Iraqis, Israelis, whoever. I don’t care who’s doing it - it all sucks and is all horrible.
First thing…that was some horrible english by me in my last post. How about I try to read something before I post it? I suck on ice!!
Now the quotes!! “This is the same old crap that Republicans always pull.”
We will work with that first. I say this because I am a conservative, I may lean towards Republican candidates, but I am not a mindless follower as many democrats/liberals would classify people who believe as I do. Labels are dangerous especially when the package that you thought said sweet and thin is really rat poison (a thinly veiled 9 to 5 reference). I try to give most people, especially those on this board, the credit of intellegence, and not label those who disagree with me. The great blog swap (or whatever it was) was there for fun, and opening up the blogs to new audiences as well. If you do not want us evil-doers (to use a Bushism) to comment on your board (and I was not one of them) then just give the address to your friends and chat over the blog to save your “Anytime Minutes.” This way no new ideas can be forged.
The other quote: “Just like I think the current violence is horrendous” Violence is awful I do agree, but even the most loving gardener must prune the roses so that something better can come in its place. Violence has been a necessary evil. It gave us our freedom and independence plus it has made the majority of Iraq peaceful. The current violence made this work for peace. What we hear on the news is the worst of the worst mainly because media outlets are to lazy to go deeper, and the sensationalism is what sells even in the news. Notice, all of the violence comes out of the same couple of areas in Iraq. I mention the beheadings because we bitched and complained about the Abu Ghraib scandal as a country, but very little, in comparison, was mentioned about American deaths with the exception of the gentleman from Marietta, and that was played out heavily because of the local connection.
Amber I do not know you, but I have heard that you are a nice person. I am passionate about my beliefs as I am sure that you are. Anything that I say here is not a personal assassination on you, just my way of making a point. That said I have one final question for you:
IF YOU WERE IN A GAME THAT MEANT EVERYTHING AND YOU COULD NOT AVOID IT WOULD YOU PLAY BY THE RULES WHEN YOU KNEW YOUR OPPOSITION WAS NEVER GOING TO ABIDE BY THE SAME RULES?
Oh I know that. No worries.
And good to know at least someone out there thinks I’m a nice person.
I’ll answer your question later.
So, this is a comment about nothing.
Sure, it was fucked up. But I expected nothing less from those degenerates. My expectations were just a wee bit higher for the leader of the free world. If you want me to hold Bush to the same standards as one of those murderers running around the desert chopping American heads off, you’re validating all of my previous criticisms. Pick your poison.
Josh and Aaron, sure… haha, okay, and Ken too.
Using the word “gulag” was hyperbole, I already conceded. But things are still plenty fucked up over there. It wasn’t so much a pro-AI rant as an anti-Cheney rant. His choice of words was piss poor considering his Administration’s track record. And it’s not an accident I’m referring to it as his Administration.
As for “The Real Enemy,” all of this would be much easier for me to swallow if we actually were fighting our real enemies instead of a metaphor. Saddam was a two-bit hustler without a buck (or a WMD) in his pocket to lay down, chosen because he was an easy target and because it would make good TV; one of Plato/Leo Strauss’ “noble lies.” Meanwhile, the people who planned the attacks on our country run free for the most part.
I’ll grant you CNN, as a whole, was kind to Clinton. These days, there’s not enough competence over there to even form a coherent partisan bias. Larry King peddles his ass like a cheap hooker, and blows anyone who slums in his interview seat. He’s a worthless flake, and has been for as long as I can remember.
I love it when you guys come around. I get bored with people jerking me off and telling me how great I am all the time.
This is why I love you Rusty.
Well crap. I come back ready to write a long serious response, and Rusty pretty much already took what I was going to say. Most of it, anyway.
This part:
Yeah. what he said.
Also, I would like to add, when I point out the deplorable violence taking place over there, I am not making any political statements by that - I’m just saying that it is horrible. Now, here is my political statement as a corollary to that: we could be doing a hell of a lot better over there. If we have to be there (also debatable, but for the sake of argument let’s just assume we do), we could at least run things a little better so that children aren’t constantly getting blown up, etc. There was no reason that Abu Ghraib had to happen. That is not “collateral damage” or any of those other fabulous phrases.
The last time I checked, the Red Cross in particular was into making sure that people are treated humanely. The Red Cross is a very highly respected international organization; they are allowed in when no other org is because of their reputation for actually doing what they say they are doing - seeing to the welfare of prisoners, refugees, etc. AI alone I would take with a larger grain of salt, but the abuses recorded by our own people and the information released by the RC give me serious pause.
As for playing by the rules, my expectation is that we do not become that which we fight against using this type of justification. We cannot concede the rules of war, and we cannot treat other human beings with depravity, no matter what occurs. Staying on the high ground is a lot harder than being dragged down into the morass, but it’s something that we must strive for. You can’t fight communism, as it were, by becoming a totalitarian state.
It’s easy to say CNN is complicit, but I think they’re just unwilling to commit hari-kari by reporting these things that the average American just does not care about. The average American who has never experienced the hardships of war (last experienced over 30 years ago). The average American who wants to kill Arabs and Muslims - any Arab or Muslim - because of the WTC.
30 years ago, the idea that the President was involved in a break-in coverup was enough to take him down. Today? It wouldn’t even make the 4th page of the paper and if it did, the paper would be branded as unpatriotic and disloyal and traitorous.
I was just copying Ann Coulter, who accuses anything that moves even one degree to her left as morally relativistic.
Well, now. When you say:
or
it just represents to me a wholly different (really, overly simplistic) outlook on how we are perceived. As a Jew who has been to some of these places in the world and spoken with some of these very folks (Eurpoeans, Israelis, Palestinians, Arabs), your comments just strike me as highly ignorant. Not to mention, it’s too easy to infer from what you say that it is okay to use force because they hate us. If my assumption on what you inferred was wrong, I don’t believe I’m at fault there.
Where I assume we disagree is in how far up the chain this accountability goes. If you think this is a case of a few bad apples, then as far as I’m concerned, you are only contributing to the buck passing. The only thing the Secretary of Defense and the people around him have going for them is “plausable deniability,” but I believe they share some of the responsibility for what happened. I know we’ll disagree on that point.
I was more sad than angry when that happened. I just don’t believe more violence is a proper answer to that sort of action — it’s a despicable example to set for others.
It really astounds me that anyone gets so upset about Clinton getting a blow job from an intern. How does that make you angry? I just don’t understand.
Nice rhetorical questions. Moral depravity is much better demonstrated by someone who kills people for political gain than it is by someone who cheats on his wife. The former has consequences that are much greater and irreversable. Whereas you can’t bring someone back from the dead, you can at least save a marriage. Clinton sinned, yes. But we can see through his actions that he repented. Bush, meanwhile, went from a life of drinking and drugs to justifying wars through a sack of lies.
Have more people really turned toward a judeo-christian viewpoint? I don’t have the numbers to say one way or the other. The only evidence I have is admittedly anecdotal — and the evidence I have shows the opposite trend. More of my friends consider themselves “spiritual, but not religious” because they can’t stand the moralisms of all these religious people who wear their faith on their sleeve. It disgusts them.
On the point of Pax Americana, I just happen to believe there is a much better way — and, in the long-term, a more secure way — of reaching that point. When we’re cast as an imperial power, ready to use force to continually expand our influence throughout the world, it doesn’t make us stronger in the long-term to act that way. The war with Iraq would have carried much more legitimacy had we been able to convince a strong coalition that the war was necessary.
Your remark was very knee-jerkish. What you said I said was not what I said at all. Fuck you, Eric.
I don’t know how I missed this the first time. Are you fucking kidding me? Surely you must be speaking ironically.
Right? Right??
Because otherwise, I think I might have to go stab myself in the eye.
I have nothing mature or intelligent to add to this conversation, I just wanted to laugh at the phrase bobo-honked.
Also:
What does this have to do anything? What does it even mean? What are you talking about? I don’t understand.
Sigh. You know, now that I’ve gone out for a breath of fresh air and gotten some food in my belly, I realize I shouldn’t have commented to begin with.
I came into this knowing we’d never agree. And these things almost always degenerates into name calling and other such bullshit. This is why I generally try not to go into the subject of national politics unless the discussion is somewhat technical and there is at least some room for persuasion. This discussion fits neither criteria.
So.. I’ll just go sit in a corner and not come back to this page. It’s time we go bobo honking.
And that, my friend, is the quote of the day.
Fuck you, Eric. Wow. Unreal. I mean you even used punctuation, but like a true fool at the end it is still about the name calling. I guess I was wrong about saying your comments were “almost sociopathic.” I assume you are a sociopath. What happened Joe? Did you go to college and get out somewhat recently? Did you write thesis papers to please your professors so that you could reiterate their ideas until they became your own? What made you into this plague on our society? Was it too much CNN as a child, or were you not held enough? I know there has to be something there Mr. Traveling Jew. Man I guess this makes you the end all be all of knowledge. I wish I got all of this practical knowledge, but instead I was busy graduating from two of the countries finest institutions, being gainfully employed and respected as a expert in my field, and provider for and raising a family.
Now it is time for you to realize (if logic makes any sense to you) a few things. Getting your dick sucked by your employee when you are married to someone else in the same building that you, your wife, and your child live in is probably wrong. I think that is even recognized in the Torah. Yeah, I think something about Adultry and Coveting was mentioned somewhere. You mention that Bush has killed people, but that has been in the framework of war. I think the war is justified and right and you think I am wrong. Jews think that Isreal is their land as promised by God, but the Palestineans believe they have a right to the same plot of land. I mention this because the same argument could be made of the Jews that are being made of our President. Death happens in war. It sucks, but it happens. Tell me what war Clinton was involved in, since we are dealing presupositions, when over 90 people that the former President had political dealings with turned up dead duing his first term. Maybe that is too harsh. How about the war Clinton waged against the people of America at Waco? If they wanted Koresh at Waco all they had to do was wait for him to leave the camp (which he did often according to the Texas Rangers). Why did he kill his own countrymen? Why did he kill the women and children? What about Ruby Ridge?
Sure but I see your point. Moral depravity was invented by the Bush administration. Yeah thats it. I am sure Nostradamus predicted of a man that mispronounces “Nuclear” would doom us all. After all we know that the impeachment of President Clinton and his censure was due to his outstanding qualities as a leader. Yeah I see the repentant attitude here. I am sure that the atrocities of Abu Ghraib were signed on as an executive order by the President, and followed through by VP Cheney operatives at Halliburton.
You discussed our responsiblities as the world’s only superpower. Let me explain to you what that responsibility is in a nutshell. “To thine own self be true.” We have to look out for us first. Maybe that is not a popular notion, but it is true. When we win a war we give the loser back their lands. What other country does that? I think that is more than benevolent don’t you? We have to consider our needs first because of all of the hierarchy of needs survival is the greatest.
What is wrong with Pax Americana? What do you propose Pax Eu? Oh wait Pax Middle Eastern is that the way to go? Please lets think as Americans and not as if we have an unfair advantage because we are the lone superpower. Do you drive a compact car so that you won’t feel as if you have an unfair advantage as you may if you were driving a SUV?
I missed the Ann Coulter remarks that were being made. I guess you just wanted to lump me in with all Republicans. Since you have confided in us your background I guess I could assume that you are in favor killing Americans at Waco and Ruby Ridge, and you want all Palestinians and Arabs dead. I possess the ability to disagree with the President, and I have in many aspects. The President never said Abu Ghraib was a good thing, and there has been punishment brought to bear against some of those who were guilty. Was it enough? Probably not, but lets start being more objective. Amnesty International is a joke. I do agree with Jen about the Red Cross being a good orgainization, but they have not been without their problems as well (this something I have witnessed).
What I have said before I say again. When we do something wrong everyone is ready to jump on Americans including us, but when others do something wrong their is no outrage. Maybe it is because we expect more from our country, and maybe it is because we have the ability to affect change from the inside out. I am outraged that AI wasn’t trying to stand by the family of the man from Marietta that was beheaded last year, but AI has the audacity to call us out. What a group of morons!
So I have a question for all:
Do you hold the president to a higher standard than anyone else? This is a simple yes or no answer.
My blog swap remark was placed at the whole right wingers taking over someones blog. I was making the point that the blog swap may have opened up a new group of readers and participants. If that is not what you wanted I was just directing you to protect your site by not letting us fundamental right wingers the ability to log on to your website.
See Joe I could have been very crude, but I decided not to. See conservatives do not have to go the name calling route all the time. Do I think you are a sociopath? I do not even know you. The fact that something as trite as that bothering you is a little funny even you must admit. Well it is 2:30 am and I am done.
Have fun, have sex, and somebody…please….get bobo honked!
Well, then, my simple answer is, YES.
There are a lot of idiots running around out there in the general populace. I expect the President not to be one of them.
Then why didn’t you expect more from Clinton?
Anyone can have a momentary lapse and make a bad decision (Monica); stupid is permanent.
1,670 U.S. soldiers didn’t die when Bubba got his bobo honked.
No, but we’re now having to clean up the mess Bubba left us in because he was focusing on little bubba and not on the festering terrorist movement during the 90’s.
I’m not going to bother formulating a long drawn-out answer to this, because I really DO NOT UNDERSTAND how ANYONE in their right mind can compare Bill Clinton’s blowjob to all the atrocities Bush has pulled in office.
Mike, nobody was focusing on the “festering terrorist movement” in the 90s. I don’t concede that what’s being described as a “movement” was anything more than a few isolated groups carrying out some prolific acts, but that’s another discussion. The more salient point here is Bush Sr. and Cheney called for a +/- 35 percent cut in military spending before Clinton ever took office, so those wheels would have been in motion no matter who was there. It’s a stretch to shift all the blame on anyone, because no one expected to have fights to pick in the 90s. You might also recall it was Reagan’s administration propping up Afghan militants against the Russians in the 80s and also Saddam against the Iranians, among others. Many of those “evil-doers” we’re targeting now have Reagan to thank for their existence.
Didn’t I mention a little bit more than the bj Clinton got. Remember “Black Hawk Down,” Serbia, the USS Kohl, and Iraq - the Clinton Attack which people actually thought he used to cover up his troubles, and was lampooned in the awful movie “Wag the Dog.”
What about Whitewater? The 90 plus people that had political contact that died? What about Ruby Ridge? What about Waco?
I hear people bitching about Cheney, but what about the biggest moron ever, you know the one who said he invented the internet? The one that said that the movie “Love Story” was based on his and Tipper’s romance (a really dumb thing since the woman at the end of the movie doesn’t die). Do you really think that if they were under the incredible stress that the current administration has been under they would have suddenly found it prudent to be honest? Please.
Reagan’s policies may have helped bring this problem, but it was necessary to remove the Soviet threat (or so we thought at the time).
Oh and Nikki. Stupid people graduate from Ivy league institutions. People may misprounouce things quite often, but it doesn’t make them stupid. Imagine if your life was captured in front of the public eye 24/7 for the last four and half years. You may be considered stupid too, as would I or anyone else on this planet.
Stupid people who graduate from Ivies (and I went to one, thank you) are in my experience legacies. So, connect the dots.
In any case, I love how this has come around to the usual, fun, neo-con rant about how everything in the world that’s ever gone wrong is Clinton’s fault. You can’t really effectively defend your guy’s moronic tenure, so you turn around and point at Clinton as if to say, “Lookit the monkey!” Problem is, your guy does not just mispronounce words — he is very openly uncurious, which concerns me more than raw, numbers-based stupidity. Furthermore, the fact of the matter is that President Bush LIED TO CONGRESS ABOUT GOING TO WAR WITH IRAQ. Whether or not everyone from my grandma to President Clinton to Colin Powell to Jesus Christ himself believed in the 90’s that Saddam had some sort of capability, the Downing Street Memo proves that our current president chose to get people killed while also knowing that there were no WMD’s.
And that is completely indefensible.
In fairness, I’d say both sides have broken down to stereotypes.
“Bush lied!” says one…
“Clinton was worse, it’s all his fault!” says the other…
One thing I agree with Eric about is the 1998 Iraq bombing in particular was just as morally reprehensible as Bush’s Iraq war. It’s not real surprising Clinton has publicly defended the latter since it lets him off the hook for his own smokescreen.
What’s more disturbing to me about what’s going on now versus what was going on then is the larger trend of prosecuting people because they might commit crimes in the future, a.k.a preemptive wars, a.k.a. The Bush Doctrine. This isn’t about just one war, it’s about an entire paradigm shift.
The architects of that war think the oil economy is going to last forever and that, by extension, America’s current position as the world’s top economic and military superpower is going to last forever. As such, they view protecting all the world’s markets as America’s responsibility. If that goal is met, they won’t really care what means were used to accomplish that goal — including lies, false imprisonment, and unnecessary force.
So, arguing the particulars of one particular conflict or even one particular person is a waste of time at this point. Someone not only needs to present an alternative to that vision, they also need to convince Americans it’s within their own self-interest to vote for the people pushing that alternative.
Until that happens, get used to the idea Pax Americana chugging along until it destroys us all.
Nikki, I got my masters from one so I know a little about some of them, but it was easily the most demanding scholastic experience of my life. My point was and still is that life in the public eye can be very diificult. How can you be that foolish and own a business that you sold for over $300 million dollars when you bought it for about $30 million? That is quite intellegent. I could also give examples as to why I think he is honest as well. Furthermore I could tell you things that I think he has done wrong, but that would be all that everyone hear (with the exception of Mike and Rusty to some degree since he has been somewhat objective). This is obiviously one more thing that you guys here love to get a hold of so that you can rip this administration. You would rather discuss how wrong a conservative is, and then in the same manner praise a traitor like Mark Felt for what he did.
Breaking the law is not acceptable anywhere, and this has been the heart of my contention. What happened at Abu Ghraib and (specifically what the AI was talking about) Guantanamo Bay were not acceptable, but you all show no outrage at the perversions of the law at Ruby Ridge, Whitewater, Waco, and in regards to Deep Throat. To you all Deep Throat was okay because he brought down a Republican (a corrupt one, but still a Republican. No one has tackled anything about Clinton that I mentioned except the oral sex issue, but you all will pick apart a Republican with wreckless abandon. This makes you all cowards. You call yourself moderates, but you all act like a democratic hatchet person like James Carville. You say you are objectively looking at this, but you have the objectivity of David Boniol.
What did I say to you on Thursday night at Sidelines Rusty about the little reported fact about Watergate? Watergate was an investigation about a prostitution ring that was running through the DNC offices, but that isn’t near as great as destroying a Presidency is it? I know what Nixon did was wrong, but everyone is either indifferent to Felt, or he is being held up as a hero when the truth is he is as much a criminal as G. Gordon Liddy, Charles Colson, or even Nixon himself. It seems you would rather grill the Bushes, Reagan, or anyone else that is a conservative than to be honest about the failings of the democrats.
Honestly what, if anything, have the democrats done in the last 10 years that have been worth a damn. For every one thing you give me I will give you a thing the Republicans have done well, and how that thing is wrong that the democrats did, or if I agree I will give you something the Republicans have done poorly. As an added bonus I will give you something the democrats have done wrong.
Try me! If you are really brave you will admit the things this presidency has done well, but I doubt most of you (Rusty and Mike excluded) can be that objective.
THE CHALLENGE IS ON!
[...] ix DVDs. Any suggestions? To the FBI agent who’s been reading my site since I wrote fuck Dick Cheney a few days ago: just kidding about the las [...]
About Felt/Watergate: I have trouble getting worked up about Felt because no one really even knows if he was the guy or not. And nobody ever will. It could all be total bullshit.
You know what offends me? Hijacking planes and killing thousands of innocent people.
People… You are not going to change the world with this conversation… dont waste time here and go to get a job or if you have one go and do it maybe you have some friend to do a party or something go and try its really fun… jejeje if you are not the first in change who ll be _??
As a South African of British decent. I find war so futile. At the age of 18 years old I was forced into the SADF to do national service, saw active duty on the Namibian / Angolan border from 1975 - 1988. I lost many of my friends and all because of some arse hole president. 3 weeks ago I spent 2 hours with my wife looking at the graves of 9370 young Americans who died during ww2 on Omaha beach. Now there was a cause, they gave up there lives for liberty not FUCKING OIL. To day in South Africa as well as all over the world Americans are widely hated or dispised. I will never again fight for some dick head president unless my country was invaded by a foriegn force. You have one life thats it. Loose it and you will just me a name on a piece of marble. In years to come the public wont know who you were or what you did. George W Bush will be retired on his Texas ranch with a fat goverment pay out. My advise is get rid of the short shit.
You think you’ve got it bad!!!!!
we have your Deputy Vice-President blair and all the bulls###, rhetoric & condesening excuses of why we had to go to war with the big IQ. while there’s tin pot leaders around the world getting away with genecide every day. But of course these tin pots don’t have MILLIONS OF BARRRELS OF OIL do they? Mr Bush…. So while we mourn the loss of our gallant soldiers & you grieve the loss of yours, Just Remember why we are there!!!!
Why are we there???????
Hey Angus shall we look at your countries history? WTF’ over
Y’all are unreal